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 Stealth Vs Detection

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Beelzebub
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PostSubject: Stealth Vs Detection   Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:17 pm

Ok ok ok, sooooooo now that this is becoming a thing I feel like a point needs to be brought up:

For Balance to be maintained between these two(assuming the base system of stealth/detection is balanced), stealth absolutely 100% cannot be allowed to modify itself beyond what it already is. What does this mean, and why?

It means that stealth is already an auto-crit if you manage to stealth, and to not modify itself means it can't be allowed to add onto that. Such as by adding more damage specifically from stealth. By giving auto-stealth, extra rolls, extra crit multipliers, extra extra extra.

Now the reason why it can't/shouldn't be done:
The only counter to Stealth is detection. A non-sensor ninja is doomed to simply eat the extra's bought by the stealth person without a chance, reason why? Because apparently auto-rolling a base 10 is allowed, on an already failed roll. "Oh but that doesn't seem so bad" except it is. That person who bought stealth will more than likely take the +13 to it that a rank 4 slot has, which means it's 20+stat vs a non-sensor's 20(max roll)+stat. at even stats, it's physically impossible for the stealth ninja to lose that, as even at a max roll of 20 it just requires the person trying to detect to reroll until they lose.

Now now, I know whats going to be said: If you want to beat stealth you can just take some detection slots. . . That however is a logical conundrum for multiple reasons:
A) Stealth as a slot/focus/ability/mechanic is intrinsically useful in all situations. whether your vs'ing it's opposite(detection) or not, stealth can be used and a heavy advantage gained. IE: Can't be targeted until you leave stealth, auto-crit, jutsus that gain benefits from being in stealth.  Where-as it's 'counter' is only useful at all when someone else is using stealth. Detection has no use at all unless your vs'ing a stealth ninja, while the stealth ninja has a use vs everyone. In case you're wondering, that's backwards to how balance should be. The one that applies bonuses universally should be the weaker of the two when it comes head-to-head.

B) An ability that forces someone else to take another, very specific and not useful at all vs everyone else, ability just so they have a chance of staying on even ground is Broken and cancerous to a system. It's how bleach-x became a nuclear arms race of abilities.

"well in dnd you can modify your sneak attacks and stuff" *slaps* stop that. In DnD there is an auto-detection that stops all of your shenanigans called true-sight, and I doubt anyone wants to see that here.

So anyways: If you allow stealth to keep getting stronger and stronger without penalties being applied to it, then there wont be any balance for it unless you start giving detection more universal uses. No matter how much you give detection bonuses vs stealth, as long as stealth can go and face everyone on a minimum of equal grounds, and at a maximum of being broken as hell, there is no true counter-play to stealth.


On a final note: Really, you can spend 23 pp on making stealth op as hell and be useful vs everyone. You can spend 23 pp on making detection kinda ok and only be useful vs that stealth person and really you'd just be lowering there benefits to neutral rather than getting a benefit yourself.

Stop buffing the 'situational' mechanics, because honestly they aren't that situational and give no interesting counter-play in this rule-set.


((There should be a note put in here that My main character is a stealth based ninja, who if all this buffing of stealth is allowed, is about to go op-sneak-Saiyan mode because why not))
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Zetsu
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PostSubject: Re: Stealth Vs Detection   Sun Jul 19, 2015 2:06 am

The core of your argument seems to be, lower Stealth values, raise Detection values. Would this go towards solving your issues?

Also I suspect you think Detection isn't useful against anyone besides Stealth because you haven't considered using Detection for anything besides Stealth. Example below.


Slot 1: Precognition
Base: As a Free Action, your opponent makes a Stealth Check and you make a Detect Check. If you win the Stealth vs Detect your Attack this Round deals a bonus D4+1 HP Damage. 1 Round Cooldown.
Upgrade I: As a Free Action, your opponent makes a Stealth Check and you make a Detect Check. If you win the Stealth vs Detect your Attack this Round deals a bonus D6+2 HP Damage. 1 Round Cooldown.


Feel free to respond.
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Beelzebub
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PostSubject: Re: Stealth Vs Detection   Sun Jul 19, 2015 3:18 am

my issue is at it's core, stealth is an active system that requires a very specific reaction, detection is a passive reaction. Without spending any pp at all that's how it is. The stealth person spends pp to buff an already existing system. The detection ninja has to buy a whole new system to use it vs everyone. Yes, what you posted is actually part of what i'm planning for Yukine, a way to make detection more pro-active rather than reactionary.

My main issue is that if your able to buff stealth to the high heavens
+crit multiplier
+conditional damage(which stacks with the auto-crit increased damage)
+4 tries a round to get into it at no cost(if you get a free action stealth, and get a free retry on each stealth attempt, and can stealth for free, that's 4 times the opponent has to win in 1 round and if it's chakra stealth it's a minimum of 8 cp from the opponent)
+super bonuses to hitting from stealth
+super dr pierce because it's conditional from stealth
+and then an actual jutsu to use on the attack that will probably gain even more damage from being 'situtianal' which it really isn't when you get 4 tries to get into stealth.
+ability to attack from stealth then as a 'free action stealth' immediately go back into stealth, keeping them 100% untargetable ever.

This all adds up to someone who physically cannot be beat by anyone other than a detection ninja, which we've already discussed is a reactionary build. There should never be a build in a system that requires an opponent to build a very specific way to go even with it. Detection shinobi wouldn't even have a higher chance of winning the fight, it'd just go down to even odds(the bonuses to detection equal the bonuses to stealth). Some 'counter'.

Go take Pulawski's requested slots(this isn't me calling him out, it's just the first to request stacking bonuses on stealth. There will surely be a flood to come), and test it vs full slots of a non-sensor. Pula's will win 100% of the time, with or without jutsu. Take it vs A Sensor ninja build, and it should go down to about 50/50 based on if the detection ninja can win all 4 detection attempts, every round. Fails 1 and it's over.

Main thing to be taken away: Abilities that requires an opponent to have one very specific build, are not balanced, that is the reason unblockable/undodeable was removed. IE: A tank that can't be damaged except by cp damage, is not balanced. A Stealth ninja that cannot be attacked ever unless you have special eyes is not balanced. An auto-hit unless you use lightning element is not balanced. That being said. . . I'd love to see said tank and stealth ninja fight. Eternal fight of eternity!

Note: The above list of what is possible on stealth is based on what was tentatively approved by a single mechanic and then subsequently re balanced, the final actuality of what can be done is still being looked at. It has sinse been reduced down to a possibility of 3 attempts per round. I shall stop all complaints until it's finally through being balanced, unless my opinion is requested o.o
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